First of all, enough with the blanket statements

"TyFc3s-A car hating millennial" (tyfc3s-a-car-hating-millennial) 01/15/2014 at 21:04 • Filed to: stance war (pro choice)

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Argue against this.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:07

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>muh front wheel drive

>muh vtak

>muh awful stance

>muh supporting BoA

>muh non-factory paint color

You realize fanboys and haters will find LITERALLY anything they can to shit on any car they don't own?

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > vdub_nut: scooter snob 01/15/2014 at 21:10

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Dont get me wrong, im not a honda fan by any stretch, but thats not the point of this stance war post

Dsscats > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:10

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Its. Hideous.

vdub_nut: scooter snob > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:13

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Oh, I'm not hating on it. I like it. Shit, I'd drive it. The point is, haters will "argue against" "this" no matter what "this" actually is.

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > vdub_nut: scooter snob 01/15/2014 at 21:14

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hahaha, oh i know, im betting on it for some late night entertainment

Jeff-God-of-Biscuits > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:15

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well... the on the positive side, you can get double the life out of your tires since once you wear out the inside on the right, you just swap them over to the left, and presto! Brand new tread. It's not like you have to worry about the effects of running asymmetrical tires in reverse will have on your handling.

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > Dsscats 01/15/2014 at 21:15

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I dont think any honda is offensive enough for one to call them hideous

vdub_nut: scooter snob > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:15

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I like your style.

Casper > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:17

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It has awful proportions visually, has become nearly useless as a car, has increased maintenance cost thanks to deliberately ruining it's camber and alignment, will suffer additional body damage due to lack of clearance, has lost massive amounts of performance, need I go on?

I would say it would be much harder to name something good about it.

CPT Speedbump > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:19

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Yeah, I'm in the shopping center parking lot, just pull in the, ohhhh wait, you can't, you'll get stuck on the tiny incline.

DollaMoneyAve > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:21

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My thoughts on "stance": This owner is a car enthusiast. So what if he/she is not enthusiastic about the same cars as you? It's their time and money and they're the one who's got to look at it and drive it everyday. I wish people would adopt a policy of indifference rather than hatred/anger when it comes to other people's preferences, whether it be with cars or otherwise.

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > Casper 01/15/2014 at 21:22

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It has not become "nearly useless as a car" its just a little low, it might scrape on occasion but it will still get you from point a to point b, as was the civics only goal ever (keep that point in mind)

The car was cheap and looks better, who cares if I have to spend a little more money on MY car.

ITS A CIVIC, who cares

HAHAHA ITS A CIVIC, there is no performance

Personally, i couldnt think of a better daily, it looks good, its good on gas and will always get me where i need to go.

(this is not my car, nor do i condone hondas)

N/A POWAAAHH > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:25

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That's quite the Maaco paint job.

/argument

Casper > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:25

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The car had a specific function, to be fuel efficient and cheap. None of these modifications improved it's functionality in any way, nor did they improve the appearance. All cars have some form of performance, and this reduces it in every measurable way.

There is literally no good reason or sound logic to justify it.

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > N/A POWAAAHH 01/15/2014 at 21:26

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now thats an argument..

but really, who cares, its a cheap car that he wanted a bit of flare on (in the smurf blue fashion..)

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:27

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Looks are subjective.

It does not look 'better.'

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > Casper 01/15/2014 at 21:28

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I think the car looks better, so does its owner. Neither one of those 2 functions are harder to achieve now

parkave231 can't get enough of that funky stuff > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:29

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No wonder your mother's trying to commit suicide...

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > parkave231 can't get enough of that funky stuff 01/15/2014 at 21:30

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war always brings out the worst in people..

Casper > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:32

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You are incorrect and provably so. That is why you can't offer a counter point.

Your entire argument is that decreasing every measurable performance statistic relevant to a motor vehicle is acceptable for aesthetic purposes alone. That's called being a poser. It's the worst form of life.

N/A POWAAAHH > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:34

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True. As long as he's not running the same setup as the guy from the stanceworks forum using bolts as camber plate spacers, I'm ok with it

Milky > Casper 01/15/2014 at 21:37

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Umm fuck your logic, genuinely. The point of a car is to enjoy it …. if you're an enthusiast how the hell do you not get that?

The owner of that dropped Civic likes his car and enjoys it, end of story.

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > Casper 01/15/2014 at 21:39

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My argument is that this is not an amazing performance car, therefore there is no posing. this is a car, it never was anything more, someone decided to build a toy out of it (because really, the cars arent good at anything else). This could be the guys daily, and he has to live with its new quirks, but i dont think any one will say that this car was "destroyed" by being lowered, because it was never amazing at driving as it was, and now it has personality (what this website embraces) and personally, i dont think the car can achieve it any other way without gobs of money

Casper > Milky 01/15/2014 at 21:40

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I have an opinion and facts on my side, you have an opinion. You are free to do anything you like with your vehicle, that doesn't mean it's intelligent or anyone else has to agree with it.

No one is stopping you from ruining your car, they are telling you they dislike it and have many very clear reasons why. You have no counter points other than you like the look... so you should go keep doing what you are doing quietly in the corner. Don't try to challenge people to a discussion you can't win.

ihm96 > DollaMoneyAve 01/15/2014 at 21:40

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I agree. At least they care about their car. I'd rather have someone like this who I bet takes much better care of his car than the average driver. And it certainly isn't beige. The definition of a car enthusiast is someone who has enthusiasm for their car or cars in general, which the stance crowd has so there isn't any reason for us oppos to act like we're a "better" car enthusiast crowd.

Milky > Casper 01/15/2014 at 21:42

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"I have an opinion and facts on my side" aaannnnddddd you missed the point.

Casper > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:45

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It was a car that was capable of navigating bumps at speed that it no longer can. It was a car that was capable of cornering at a higher speed than it now can. It was a car that was capable of many more miles per set of tires than it now can.

The amount of performance lost is irrelevant. You asked for an argument. I provided a clear argument with sound logic to which you have no counter. Don't start the discussion if you don't have the ability to discuss and admit your position maybe improvable or weak. Accept that you are doing something illogical or potentially stupid because you like it and move on. Do not attempt to defend it with damaged or incomplete logic statements.

desertdog5051 > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:49

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...And the beat goes on....

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > Casper 01/15/2014 at 21:51

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Yea, now the car has to slow down for big bumps, but thats maybe a few more seconds than usual. And as the car might not handle as well as it once could (though i do doubt just how much was lost), it can still probably do plenty to get you where you need to go. Tires are a price this particular individual is willing to pay for what the car now offers him

The fact behind all of this is that there is so much hostility towards lowered cars these days and a lot of the cars just werent anything special to begin with. Combine that with personal choice and its really not right to piss on ones parade just because you dont like it in theory

Casper > Milky 01/15/2014 at 21:52

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Then make a point. You have failed to do so other than "I like the look" which is irrelevant to the discussion. We are outlining why we disagree, you must counter OUR points, not skate past to try to make your own. I have made many very clear points.

Casper > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 21:55

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So you made a car that wasn't special, less practical, and improved nothing. If you start with a low quality car, and make it worse in all measurable ways, why would you not expect people to disagree?

The world doesn't have to agree with anything you do. If you do something simply to be different or for personal preference that makes no logical sense, don't challenge those who disagree based on logic. Go do your thing and don't try to convince anyone it makes sense. Think of it as a strange sexual fetish and keep it to your group of like minded individuals.

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > Casper 01/15/2014 at 22:08

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But stance is not something along those lines where it should never be discussed, its a very alive part of our culture that at least demands some respect to those who love what they do. This particular individual took a very mundane car and made it personal, he cared for it and made it his own, the point of this whole spiel is that blanket statements are being made that all stance is wrong because a few E36s are being "destroyed" and thats not always the case (for one there are coilovers out there that both lower and help, or at least dont hurt the car). But ill be the first to say the E36 is a great handling car (i love the damn things), and yes, im sure most of the extremes out there dont drive like they should, and thats a shame as the cars are great. but the civic just isnt that, and if i owned a civic DD, itd be a little like this car (with more tire). and of course on top of all that you have car enthusiast doing something they feel passionate about to their cars, and i hate people pissing on that

Casper > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 22:13

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The real problems are that you believe because something is done by someone else it demands respect, and that making something different is a good thing. Different means different, not better or special.

The reality is that people aren't against lowering cars, they are against illogical and stupid modifications of all kinds. That's why people hate ricers too. The level of passion is irrelevant. I can be passionate about punching myself in the balls, that doesn't mean anyone needs to come along and reassure me of my passion... in fact most would think I was an idiot and that's perfectly reasonable. If I'm truly doing it because I enjoy doing it, and not to gain acceptance from other people, then I will do it regardless.

Milky > Casper 01/15/2014 at 22:13

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My point - "The owner of that dropped Civic likes his car and enjoys it"

You said you had a track car, that plus the way you're talking proves you are a very numerical person. Not all people are like that. A vehicle is object to be enjoyed, people do it in different ways. I don't see why I need any other point.

Textured Soy Protein > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 22:13

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That's more than "just a little low."

What's the point of a car that as you describe it is a daily driver if you have to inch diagonal up every driveway with a grade of more than half a degree, and rides like shit from all the unsprung weight from gigantic wheels that can't be controlled because the ride height has left it sitting on the bump stops instead of able to actually use the shocks?

Because it looks cool? That part is very debatable.

Casper > Milky 01/15/2014 at 22:17

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You seem confused. Liking something isn't a counter point. People can like anything, some like burning themselves, others like cutting themselves, more still like lemonade. That has nothing to do with trying to argue a logical point about the choice. A personal preference is just that, and no one has to agree with you. The fact you seem to think it does shows you either have a skewed concept of your value to the rest of the world or that you are trying to dampen an insecurity by gaining attention doing what you are doing. Both are very different than doing something because you truly enjoy it.

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > Casper 01/15/2014 at 22:30

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If you spent time and energy on designing ways to hit yourself in the sack and were passionate about your performances, id respect you (at least a little). Hell, i even respect you for sitting here and going back and forth with me about this.

I respect anyone who devotes time and energy to something. ive seen a lot of people devote ridiculous amounts of time into the worst of cars to get them to sit right (a certain caviler comes to mind) and anyone has to respect that. especailly because when the car was done it looked wild. it was wide and low on corvette wheels witha roll cage. You have to respect the dedication alone on something like that which took YEARS of energy to perfect.

and yes, the civic pictured is a bit dramatic. but I respect the dedication, time and energy devoted to make that car what he wanted. If i had a daily civic, id lower it quite a bit, but i like to think my car would be nicer (more sidewall, no camber over .5* etc) but im not in the position to piss on this guys car over what id change, as long as he enjoys it, more power to him

Casper > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 22:34

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I didn't say I didn't respect the person, I don't respect the creation. Just as I don't respect paint thrown against a wall because the person doing said it was art. That's why I haven't sworn or called you any names.

You see time and effort, I see someone doing something incorrectly and lazily. Time spent doing something wrong is time wasted. Time spent perfecting something is priceless. There are right ways to lower cars and wrong ways. I haven't met anyone who is flat out against all lowing on cars, but most people expect it to be done with some logic. Doing so to gain x performance makes sense because you are losing your daily drive ability to gain cornering performance. Doing so and losing performance simply doesn't make sense and very few people will agree with it.

Milky > Casper 01/15/2014 at 22:40

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You have to be an engineer, you're an engineer right? The fact that your last few sentences you tried to talk down to me because you are oh so logical proves what I said to you in every reply. ITS A FUCKING CAR, it doesn't need to be the best at some number you think its needs to be good at.

Hence why some people prefer a Maserati over a GTR. Or instead of spending 10k on a good car, some people would rather spend 5k on a shitty one and donk it for another 5k.

Whenever I see a donk in Detroit I don't get upset because I know the owner enjoys it. A vehicle is a object to be enjoyed and most of the time its all about being illogical. There is a reason we all don't drive Versa's.

anothermiatafanboy > Casper 01/15/2014 at 22:42

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Some people like the way it looks. That in itself is a function. You probably bemoan the A7 being more pricey than an A6, but they are gonna sell them, and not due to increased functionality, but looking better. I don't think slammed cars look good, but some do, and they do get attention, which is probably the owners main goal. In that respect he has made the car more functional. I like my car to perform well, but some people just commute and don't mind trading ride comfort and handling for style.

Casper > Milky 01/15/2014 at 22:46

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Your enjoyment is irrelevant to trying to prove WHY something makes sense. If you enjoy it, it's emotional. At that point you can't prove anything... it very well maybe the stupidest thing on earth to everyone else, but you do it because you enjoy it. So enjoy it. You can never prove it. You may see something like a donk and care how the owner feels about it, so do I. That doesn't make me think it's less stupid, it just means I wouldn't do damage to it out of respect for their efforts.

You seem entirely confused by the concept of a discussion. The OP asked for arguments against the pic, I offered them. You either refute and disprove my points are you don't. Your personal preferences aren't relevant without something of substance to back them up.

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > Casper 01/15/2014 at 22:47

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Well i often do respect the end result as well, but yes, youre right, something done wrong doesnt command the same levels of respect by any means. And i know this car could be done better.

This is where the whole pro choice part of me comes out haha, Because i wouldnt do any of this to these levels. Im ordering actual nice midrange coilovers for my Fc tomorrow and plan on running the car fairly low and fairly flush, but I dont have stretched tires, and ill tweek the car to work right, as it is a daily. But like i already said, i respect the people and the creations, and they look good in pictures, but i dont ever want to drive them

At the shop i work at theres this one Fc rx7 convertible that comes in with stretched tires that is just slammed to ridiculous levels. I like the car. The car looks great, but one drive around the block was enough for me hahaha

TL;DR Live and let stance, even if you dont agree, the cars look good in pictures (to some)

Casper > anothermiatafanboy 01/15/2014 at 22:52

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It's not about basic functionality, it's about logic. An A7 costs more than an A6 because it contains more material value and perks than an A6. It makes sense. A slammed car can make sense if it was done for some reason to improve the function of a car, but if that purpose is "look at me" as you suggest, then it's posing. A car might be extremely low in order to be better aerodynamically at the track or to get better mileage. Makes sense. You are sacrificing one area of performance for another. When you sacrifice without a measurable gain, you are acting illogically and will never be able to make an argument. At that point be happy with your irrational decision and move on. Trying to argue why someone should agree with stance is like someone arguing why you should like orange.

Casper > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/15/2014 at 22:55

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The entire issue is forced agreement. For whatever reason stance supporters believe if people disagree with them they must try to force agreement. Just because I think something done is stupid it doesn't stop anyone from doing it. If someone started trying to impede the freedom to do said thing, then I would have to defend them.

TyFc3s-A car hating millennial > Casper 01/15/2014 at 23:04

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haha, youre very right, and i think we resolved this issue a while back. As long as you respect the effort, i guess theres no reason in bitching at you for not liking it. obviously you dont need to like it, but know that it will be discussed here on an open car forum

Milky > Casper 01/16/2014 at 00:20

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Bro I got it this time.

Baskingshark > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/16/2014 at 00:25

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I like it, a lot actually. I had that exact car but stock with an auto sadly? but it was a blast to drive. I had my first lesson in understeer sliding into a curb at like 30 and popping the front tires.

I'm sure whome ever has this car loves it and takes great care of it. If those are real BBS wheels, I didn't take that close of a look at it, he has sunk a lot of money on it already. A well tuned civic can be a quick one and I'm sure the stiffer lowing spring help a little with the handling.

Baskingshark > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/16/2014 at 00:25

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I like it, a lot actually. I had that exact car but stock with an auto sadly? but it was a blast to drive. I had my first lesson in understeer sliding into a curb at like 30 and popping the front tires.

I'm sure whome ever has this car loves it and takes great care of it. If those are real BBS wheels, I didn't take that close of a look at it, he has sunk a lot of money on it already. A well tuned civic can be a quick one and I'm sure the stiffer lowing spring help a little with the handling.

Biodegradable Wiring Harness > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/16/2014 at 02:19

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This is actually one of the ugliest ones I've seen. Wheel wells way too big for the wheels. Yeah I know they had to do that to get it that low, but it doesn't change the fact that it looks terrible.

bkempert > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/16/2014 at 09:07

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I'll bite. I hate the fitment of the wheels/tires. The color is awesome IMO, but just about nothing else works for me.

anothermiatafanboy > Casper 01/16/2014 at 10:54

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I am definitely not saying someone should like stance, I don't like it and you shouldn't either. But you guys sound like such nerds saying 'it doesn't improve the function of the car'. To the owner of this civic, the function is to get attention and look cool, and by this yardstick he would definitely say he improved the function. You guys act like track performance is a cars one use. You guys don't detract chrome or flashy wheels, and you could just as easily say "it doesn't improve function" in those cases but it does improve a function: looking cool. You guys probably have trouble understanding art and music as well don't you?

Casper > anothermiatafanboy 01/16/2014 at 11:01

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That's form, not function.

anothermiatafanboy > Casper 01/16/2014 at 13:15

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But there are drivers who value form most of all, just as some women wear fashion that is uncomfortable in the name of looking good. You could argue 'a tshirt would be more comfortable' which would be completely missing the point as I believe you are now.

jdb2 > Casper 01/16/2014 at 13:54

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My take on it is there are lots of things other people think are illogical. Some people may wonder why you'd want to increase the cars performance because that makes it better at doing something dangerous and why would you ever want to put yourself in danger ? And all that extra power really wastes gas, gas is expensive, why would you do that? The point is we're all into something that somebody may not think is logical and the reality is we're all just as much in a small group of people that like senseless things as stance people are, except in their case stance cannot be measured in anything other than emotions. That may be relevant to some people and not to others. Live and let live. Drive free or die. And most importantly, don't be a dick. Seriously, don't be a dick.

Casper > anothermiatafanboy 01/16/2014 at 14:04

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That's fine. That's form. The point with form is I can hate it, you can like it, and you can't make me like it just as I can't make you hate it. Form is pure preference and has to be accepted as such.

I will say that ruining something that was specifically engineered for a purpose by reducing it's performance at it's designed task is not art. Art is the creation of something unique and beautiful from nothing. Ruining a car by putting it way out of camber and lowering beyond usable levels is like throwing food against a wall and declaring it art... you can't be disproven, but likewise, almost no one will agree with you.

At the end of the day, the cars that the majority hate are not simply lowered cars with nice wheels. They are taken to an extreme that has lost track of any reason or function, has gone toward a level most people consider tacky, and is virtually indefensible by the owner. At this point, it's so much personal preference and so little logic that there should be no attempts to defend it. Accept people will not like it and move on.

Casper > jdb2 01/16/2014 at 14:07

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The problem is that it isn't illogical and it's a measurable result. For instance if I want to make a car go from 0-60 a bit faster, and make changes to do so, then it's a measurable change. It either works or it doesn't.

You seem to be very confused about the difference between disagreeing with someone and being a dick. There is no requirement that I have to like anything you do. If what you do isn't what I like, I don't have to feign interest or appreciation to make you feel better. That's the facts of the world.

EuroJosh > Casper 01/16/2014 at 15:06

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Precisely. Neither I or he are trying to make you like it. I think he's just trying to get you to the point where he knows that you think its okay that he does what he wants despite that you don't like what it actually creates.

Casper > EuroJosh 01/16/2014 at 15:07

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Then he's lost. This thread was created to argue the virtue of the posted car.

EuroJosh > Casper 01/16/2014 at 15:11

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Just saying the don't be a dick thing was just a jesting quote from the rules of oppo lol but I agree, you do not have to agree with it, he and others just want you to respect the fact that they are doing it because its what they're into, not what they actually do itself. Sometimes you just gotta say hey man punching yourself in the balls is weird but if it makes you happy then by all means keep punching yourself in the balls . And yes I do realize he asked for the argument but you strike me as the person that would argue this no matter what lol but in general just don't berate people for doing dumb things so long as its not hurting anyone else.
inb4: It hurts my eyes.

Casper > EuroJosh 01/16/2014 at 15:17

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I have said multiple times that everyone is free to do whatever they want. Just don't try to justify it to the rest of the world. As soon as you start trying to justify it to me, it's not a personal preference, it's a topic for debate, so you have to make sure you actually know why you are doing it before hand.

TwoFortified > TyFc3s-A car hating millennial 01/16/2014 at 15:40

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Argue against that? Ok, fine. First things first, those rims are too small. What are those, 15's? Go up to 18's and it'll look 1000x better.

Anything beyond that depends greatly on ride quality, which I obviously can't comment on because photograph.

anothermiatafanboy > Casper 01/16/2014 at 18:36

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Casper, my man, I will say I do enjoy reading your arguments they are well written and thought out. And I guess we will have to disagree here. For the record I am not a fan of the stance look and I would never do that to my car. But I think it is silly to say the stanced look is virtually indefensible. People have been making modifications to machines from day one, and some add style at the cost of practicality. I don't usually like form over function mods like ape hangers some of my riding buddies have on their bikes, or putting tractor wheels on a camaro, or what has been done to this civic, but I am not a crotchety old man and I understand why they do it...for attention and to stand out in a crowd. And to the people who do these things to their vehicle that is much more important than the ride handling benefits of properly set up suspension. I see where you are coming from...I'm giving you a foot here, can you not even give an inch and say you understand at least a tiny bit where I am coming from...?

Casper > anothermiatafanboy 01/16/2014 at 18:43

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I do understand why they are doing it. When someone is doing something for the sake of form, they don't need public approval for it. It's purely subjective. It's the logic behind the rationalizations that is indefensible.

At issue isn't personal preference or style, it's the fact that a discussion was started in which someone was directly attempting to justify their logic to their opposition. I know a lot of people who do stupid things to their cars and bikes. It doesn't matter to me at all until they try to justify them. Rationalizing something that doesn't have a basis in logic, for instance a preference in paint color between red and orange, is fundamentally indefensible in most cases because it isn't truly based on logic. That's why you don't see people doing it.

If you put a giant wing on your car that I think is ugly, I'll tell you. If you then show that it increases your down force x percent in a dyno and was the best design, that's why you chose it, you have proven that regardless of what I think, it's working. If you paint a car in polkadots, I'll say it's ugly. If you then try to justify it to me with nonsense or say I have to appreciate it because it's art, I'll call out the nonsense.

I have no problem with people doing whatever they like with their own cars. Just don't try to shovel bullshit about why.